Can the artist be separated from the art?

[neader]

Vote. I've heard arguments from  both from many people over the years on here and think it's an interesting discussion. 

[Xamnam]

It depends on the art form to some degree, but more so what the artist did and whether it has bearing on the art in question.

For example, Louis C.K. both has material virtually directly related to his trangressions, and his stand up is generally viewed as very confessional and not a character. Very hard to do there.

[Pale Hose]

Depends on what they've done/do that makes them offensive.

[ten15]

I think it somewhat depends on the history you have with said artist and the level of offensiveness. It may be easier to get past bad behavior with an artist you truly like(d) for a long time.

Also, there may be a line drawn between existing art and new art. For example, I still really enjoy Seinfeld, but I would not actively seek out anything that Michael Richards may do in the future.

[thebosma]

It really depends for me on some questions I ask. What did the artist do? To what degree am I engaging in this medium? Is this artist still making money off of me enjoying their work?

For me there are also other areas that are a bit more subjective but for Woody Allen I will watch something like Annie Hall but not Manhattan, since Manhattan pretty much directly engages in what he has done. However, when he’s dead and no longer profiting off of me watching Manhattan, I will be more likely to do so. This has been hard for me lately since a lot of my favorite artists have done a lot of terrible things. Kevin Spacey was once one of my favorite actors and I mentally had a pretty bad response to the idea of watching one of his movies, but I didn’t have the same thing with Roman Polanski, who has also done some horrible things. I’ve been trying not to give people a pass just because I like the films or music they make, and if I tell someone I enjoy something by one of these artists, I add the caveat that I disagree with the things they’ve done. I also am much less likely to recommend that stuff to other people.

[neader]

I think my biggest difficulty is am I giving them a pass because I like their music, essentially trying to do mental gymnastics to make it acceptable?

I know it's so fucking cliche to bring up Jon Lennon beating Cynthia but it's a pretty good example when I still love the Beatles but won't listen to artists like xxxtentacion or surfer blood. I don't really buy into the argument of it being a different time for something like this either.

[venom]

Aug 22, 2018 7:17:48 GMT -6 ten15 said:

For example, I still really enjoy Seinfeld, but I would not actively seek out anything that Michael Richards may do in the future.

Seinfeld is one of the things i think about most when this question comes up. that show is very funny, was seminal for me growing up, and has mostly aged well. yet there are some extremely problematic stories that would be skewered today. and if you're going to bring up michael richards, i think you've got to bring up jerry too. but can i still watch those characters? sure.

[Tweet]

This is what I think of every time this conversation comes up at this point

[Tweet]

And to actually answer the question, yes. We do it all the time, or at least I do. It's a very privileged thing to be able to do

[goodson]

i will write out a longer thing when i am by a computer but the answer is for me is no, it is an impossible task and one's ability to do it serves as a reflection of their privilege

[teekoh]

Aug 22, 2018 8:33:47 GMT -6 goodson said:

i will write out a longer thing when i am by a computer but the answer is for me is no, it is an impossible task and one's ability to do it serves as a reflection of their privilege

I'm inclined to agree with this. 

In the case of considering artists of the past I do think it makes sense to take into account the historical context, severity of crime/mistake, and any efforts at rehabilitation, not as an effort to justify but moreso portray a complete picture of the artist that also includes their flaws. As for contemporaries, it's crucial to keep folks accountable, particularly those with power. 

[neader]

Aug 22, 2018 8:46:07 GMT -6 teekoh said:

Aug 22, 2018 8:33:47 GMT -6 goodson said:

i will write out a longer thing when i am by a computer but the answer is for me is no, it is an impossible task and one's ability to do it serves as a reflection of their privilege

I'm inclined to agree with this. 

In the case of considering artists of the past I do think it makes sense to take into account the historical context, severity of crime/mistake, and any efforts at rehabilitation, not as an effort to justify but moreso portray a complete picture of the artist that also includes their flaws. As for contemporaries, it's crucial to keep folks accountable, particularly those with power. 

I get that certain things were more "acceptable" compared to today but they were still frowned upon. I'd like to tell myself I agree with you and goodson but for artists like bowie and lennon it's difficult.

[goodson]

i think a huge part of people's issues with distancing themselves from artists they love but have been revealed to be bad people is the way we are encouraged to consume art today - we are encouraged to feel as if we know the artist, that we understand them on a personal level and that we are in a way their friend or colleague

a lot of the arguments for a separation of art and artist stem from barthes theory of the "death of the author", but how can one still subscribe to that theory when we no longer consume media in that way

[Xamnam]

That's what I was pointing at, albeit indirectly, when I talked about the art form itself making a difference. I absolutely get that argument for comedy, podcasts, and a lot of musicians, but the director of a film, for example, grants a lot more psychological distance (though I suppose it gets finicky again with auteurs).

[Deleted]

i think it's pretty much impossible for anyone to do it 100% of the time. the more you like an artist, the more you're inclined to move the goalposts when something problematic arises.

we've all probably got a few artists that we do it for while simultaneously throwing stones at other that do it for their favorites.

[alady]

Is there a good example of separating the art from the artist when the artist is a woman? That phrase is almost always used when making excuses for men who have done shitty things, because they also happened to create some good art ("good" as defined generally from the straight while male viewpoint)

[Pale Hose]

Aug 22, 2018 10:15:44 GMT -6 alady said:

Is there a good example of separating the art from the artist when the artist is a woman? That phrase is almost always used when making excuses for men who have done shitty things, because they also happened to create some good art ("good" as defined generally from the straight while male viewpoint)

Roseanne.

[Tweet]

Aug 22, 2018 10:15:44 GMT -6 alady said:

Is there a good example of separating the art from the artist when the artist is a woman? That phrase is almost always used when making excuses for men who have done shitty things, because they also happened to create some good art ("good" as defined generally from the straight while male viewpoint)

I don't know if it's a direct relationship, but The Fabulous Moolah from professional wrestling was a deal that came back to life back in the spring

[Deleted]

Roseanne maybe? That's a recent example. But yes, it's much more common that we're making these exceptions for men.

[Tweet]

Aug 22, 2018 10:16:54 GMT -6 Pale Hose said:

Aug 22, 2018 10:15:44 GMT -6 alady said:

Is there a good example of separating the art from the artist when the artist is a woman? That phrase is almost always used when making excuses for men who have done shitty things, because they also happened to create some good art ("good" as defined generally from the straight while male viewpoint)

Roseanne.

Also her!

[alady]

That's fair, though I would argue it was a remote harm that she perpetrated as opposed to something more direct like assault.

[neader]

Didn't Amy Schumer like openly brag about raping a dude?

[Deleted]

I don't know that there is a perfect approach for this type of thing. I will avoid movies directed by people who have had accusations leveled against them or who have been convicted of a crime. I mean there are always going to be exceptions, but that's been my general view. I just think it's very, very difficult to separate directors from any work in which they are involved. Woody Allen's movies are very creepy in hindsight.

My wife has been much more iron clad on this issue and thinks that, for example, any movie starring someone like Casey Affleck is off-limits.

[Deleted]

I also don't think it reflects "privilege" to make a concerted effort to avoid certain movies, television shows or books because you do not want to be seen as supporting a person who did something reprehensible. But maybe I'm misunderstanding that reference.

[neader]

Aug 22, 2018 10:20:52 GMT -6 neader said:

Didn't Amy Schumer like openly brag about raping a dude?

SPOILER: Click to show

It was 8 a.m., my dorm room phone rang. "Amy, wassup? It's Matt. Come over." Holy shit! This is it, I thought. He woke up thinking about me! He realized we're meant to start a life together! Let's just stop all this pretending that we weren't free just to love one another! I wondered, would we raise our kids in the town we both grew up in, or has he taken a liking to Baltimore? I don't care. I'll settle wherever he's most comfortable. Will he want to raise our kids Jewish? Who cares? I shaved my legs in the sink, I splashed some water under my armpits, and my randomly assigned Albanian roommate stared at me from under her sheets as I rushed around our shitty dorm room. I ran right over to his place, ready for our day together. What would we do? It's still early enough, maybe we're going fishing? Or maybe his mom's in town, and he wanted me to join them for breakfast. Knock-knock. Is he going to carry me over the threshold? I bet he's fixing his hair and telling his mom, "Be cool, this may be the one!" I'll be very sweet with her, but assert myself, so she doesn't think she's completely in charge of all the holiday dinners we're going to plan together. I'll call her by her first name, too, so she knows she can't mess with me. "Rita! I'm going to make the green bean casserole this year, and that's that!" Knock-knock. Ring ring. Where is he?

Finally, the door opens. It's Matt, but not really. He's there, but not really. His face is kind of distorted, and his eyes seem like he can't focus on me. He's actually trying to see me from the side, like a shark. "Hey!" he yells, too loud, and gives me a hug, too hard. He's fucking wasted. I'm not the first person he thought of that morning. I'm the last person he called that night. I wonder, how many girls didn't answer before he got to fat freshman me? Am I in his phone as Schumer? Probably. But I was here, and I wanted to be held and touched and felt desired, despite everything. I wanted to be with him. I imagined us on campus together, holding hands, proving, "Look! I am lovable! And this cool older guy likes me!" I can't be the troll doll I'm afraid I've become.

He put on some music, and we got in bed. As that sexy maneuver where the guy pushes you on the bed, you know, like, "I'm taking the wheel on this one. Now I'm going to blow your mind," which is almost never followed up with anything. He smelled like skunk microwaved with cheeseburgers, which I planned on finding and eating in the bathroom, as soon as he was asleep. We tried kissing. His 9 a.m. shadow was scratching my face — I knew it'd look like I had fruit-punch mouth for days after. His alcohol-swollen mouth, I felt like I was being tongued by someone who had just been given Novocain. I felt faceless, and nameless. I was just a warm body, and I was freezing cold. His fingers poked inside me like they had lost their keys in there. And then came the sex, and I use that word very loosely. His penis was so soft, it felt like one of those de-stress things that slips from your hand? So he was pushing aggressively into my thigh, and during this failed penetration, I looked around the room to try and distract myself or God willing, disassociate. What's on the wall? A Scarface poster, of course. Mandatory. Anything else? That's it? This Irish-Catholic son of bank teller who played JV soccer and did Mathletes feels the most connection with a Cuban refugee drug lord. The place looked like it was decorated by an overeager set designer who took the note "temporary and without substance" too far.

He started to go down on me. That's ambitious, I think. Is it still considered getting head if the guy falls asleep every three seconds and moves his tongue like an elderly person eating their last oatmeal? Chelsea? Is it? Yes? It is. I want to scream for myself, "Get out of here, Amy. You are beautiful, you are smart, and worth more than this. This is not where you stay." I feel like Fantine and Cosette and every fucking sad French woman from Les Miz. And whoever that cat was who sang "Memories," what was that musical? Suze Orman just goes, "Cats." The only wetness between my legs is from his drool, because he's now sleeping and snoring into me. I sigh, I hear my own heartbreak, I fight back my own tears, and then I notice a change in the music. Is this just a bagpipe solo? I shake him awake. "Matt, what is this? The Braveheart soundtrack? Can you put something else on, please?" He wakes up grumpily, falls to the floor, and crawls. I look at his exposed butt crack, a dark, unkempt abyss that I was falling into. I felt paralyzed. His asshole is a canyon, and this was my 127 Hours. I might chew my arm off.

I could feel I was losing myself to this girl in this bed. He stood up and put a new CD on. "Darling, you send me, I know you send me, honest, you do ..." I'm thinking, "What is this?" He crawled back into bed, and tried to mash at this point his third ball into my vagina. On his fourth thrust, he gave up and fell asleep on my breast. His head was heavy and his breath was so sour, I had to turn my head so my eyes didn't water. But they were watering anyway, because of this song. Who is this? This is so beautiful. I've never heard these songs before. They're gutting me. The score attached to our morning couldn't have been more off. His sloppy, tentative lovemaking was certainly not in the spirit of William Wallace. And now the most beautiful love songs I've ever heard play out as this man-boy laid in my arms, after diminishing me to a last-minute booty call. I listened to the songs and I cried. I was looking down at myself from the ceiling fan. What happened to this girl? How did she get here? I felt the fan on my skin and I went, "Oh, wait! I am this girl! We got to get me out of here!" I became my own fairy godmother. I waited until the last perfect note floated out, and escaped from under him and out the door. I never heard from Matt again, but felt only grateful for being introduced to my new self, a girl who got her value from within her. I'm also grateful to Matt for introducing me to my love Sam Cooke, who I'm still with today

[goodson]

Aug 22, 2018 10:15:44 GMT -6 alady said:

Is there a good example of separating the art from the artist when the artist is a woman? That phrase is almost always used when making excuses for men who have done shitty things, because they also happened to create some good art ("good" as defined generally from the straight while male viewpoint)

the list becomes incredibly small and even harder to pin down - joan crawford is the only one i can think of

men excusing other men for art that they like because they have commited acts that don't affect them, and then supporting them ensures both that they remain in power and further perpetuate the idea that male artists can get away with whatever the fuck they want as long as it is in the service of great art

[Xamnam]

Aug 22, 2018 10:25:48 GMT -6 scoots said:

I also don't think it reflects "privilege" to make a concerted effort to avoid certain movies, television shows or books because you do not want to be seen as supporting a person who did something reprehensible. But maybe I'm misunderstanding that reference.

I think gs's arguing the reverse, the ability to ignore the reprehensible actions of a person because you enjoy their work is privileged. 

[Deleted]

Ah, gotcha.

[goodson]

Aug 22, 2018 10:25:48 GMT -6 scoots said:

I also don't think it reflects "privilege" to make a concerted effort to avoid certain movies, television shows or books because you do not want to be seen as supporting a person who did something reprehensible. But maybe I'm misunderstanding that reference.

are u referencing when i mentioned "privilege"? i was trying to state that someones ability to still enjoy works of art created by people who do reprehensible things, and blocking this knowledge out, is an ability of someones privilege, oftentimes as a straight white male who isn't affected by the reprehensible acts

oh wait xam explained it

[teekoh]

The examples of women I can think of are more in the case of domestic or child abuse that was frequently mutual, like Nina Simone. I'm sure that there are others, but I'm having a hard time thinking of them.